New to scuba diving and have a few questions

[Jenkins]

(29-11-2008 08:22 PM)gerald1961 Wrote:  so does padi provide insurance or just the training.

PADI is a training agency so you need to find insurance from elsewhere.

Many holiday policies (mine included) state that you are only insured to the depth of your qualification. Exceed this on any dive during the trip and if something goes wrong (you get bent?) they then have the perfect excuse to refuse to pay out - and recompression treatment doesn't come cheap!

Obviously in the UK the wonderfull NHS picks up the medical bill and the RNLI/Coastguard/RAF do a brilliant job of recovering lost divers back to shore, so even if things go wrong exceeding your depth limit isn't going to leave you having to sell the house. As said above there is nothing to stop you from exceeding your official depth limit (and many of us will admit to having done it) but if something goes wrong it could be a costly few extra metres.

[Argonaut]

PADI is an organisation to promote the business of it's instructors ... the clue is in the name
Professional Association Dive Instructors.
Like all professional bodies it's fundamental goal is to make money for itself, the image it will want to project is that it s there to protect the customers ... but though laudable, it's not true.

I accept this ... and it suits me to pay PADI money for training to obtain their certification cards, which then allows me to dive anywhere that requires PADI certification (for me that means on holidays).
Back home I don't dive under auspices of PADI ... I just go dive where I want, when I want, no guides, no DM.

On the Q of insurance, I do dive within the limitation of my certifications (40m) .. ... if anything went wrong, my insurance would cover me, as I am 'trained' to what I dive to.

A local Dive instructor did not follow this rule, and last year dived to 40m+ in Red Sea, under a Post Office policy that specifically states cover is to 30m only.
She knew this and like many ‘took the risk’
She got bent after a >40m dive and had a huge bill for treatment incl. massive chamber costs, extra weeks in-country etc. (she did make a full recovery)

What is my point .... PADI provides a benchmark certification (at cost) ... it does not guarantee that you possess the necessary skills, and PADI is not an insurance provider.
Insurance companies will insure you based on the benchmark certification as long as you do not exceed the parameters of that certification.

An analogy is gas installation at home.... I built my own house, did all of it, including the wiring & plumbing.
Although I installed the gas boiler, tested & commissioned it ..... if anything went wrong my house insurance would be in their rights to refuse pay out, as they could claim it was not installed by a competent person.
I know I am competent and have installed many systems over past 30 years ... but the insurance companies only accept CORGI registration as the benchmark for competence, and requires an annual gas safety test signed by CORGI member.
The fact t hat I know my installation better than the CORGI guy who did the test, and my tests were far more onerous than his .... is unfortunately irrelevant.
The professional body (CORGI) is there to primarily look after itself and secondary it's members - not me.
Altruistically they will say that they exist to ensure minimum safety standards are met, in practice they exist to make money.
In exactly the same way as PADI does.

Maybe if PADI did provide insurance as part of the certification then perhaps there would be improved training ... but then probably mandatory annual retests etc. (I'm sure some think that a good idea)
However would you really want to pay for a mandatory scuba review annually 

[gerald1961]

what puzzles me is all the padi instructors whom have taught me are volunteers. When I first signed up I presumed they were paid, like learning to drive you book a lesson and if the instructor is not available then someone else teaches. Several times I have turned for a prebooked plan only to be told sorry no available due to instructor having to change their plans. As I have already asked on this foroum is it possible to take a course using a private tutor or must you alwasy book through a padi centre.

My other personal gripe is why does padi provide online learning but the cost of that learning and materials is not deducted from the cost of the course.

[Argonaut]

(28-11-2008 11:03 PM)air-guzzler Wrote:  

(28-11-2008 10:52 PM)DaveS Wrote:  

...

Oh yeh my log book is not upto date and has loads of depths i should not have been too

at least that is better than some ... I'm sure that some log books include depths they haven't been to :-)

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(30-11-2008 11:22 AM)gerald1961 Wrote:  what puzzles me is all the padi instructors whom have taught me are volunteers. When I first signed up I presumed they were paid, like learning to drive you book a lesson and if the instructor is not available then someone else teaches. Several times I have turned for a prebooked plan only to be told sorry no available due to instructor having to change their plans. As I have already asked on this foroum is it possible to take a course using a private tutor or must you alwasy book through a padi centre.

My other personal gripe is why does padi provide online learning but the cost of that learning and materials is not deducted from the cost of the course.

The only person who can certify you is an instructor, who is paid, he must be in the water with you.

DM's can assist on OW, try dives etc.

There is a case in front of PADI at the moment regarding a local S.Wales PADI dive centre ... they have been reported for using DM's to carry out instruction, and the instructor just signing off without having been involved. (allegedly)
If hey are found guilty then they could be struck off by PADI.

However ... I am a cynic, (or is it realist) this particular centre won an award last year for putting through more OW than any other centre ... do you honestly think PADI will cut off that very lucrative revenue stream - ?

Smack on wrist, announcement that procedures have been tightened - at most.

[furryman]

(30-11-2008 11:22 AM)gerald1961 Wrote:  Several times I have turned for a prebooked plan only to be told sorry no available due to instructor having to change their plans.

In which case the PADI centre you are booking through is not "Professional" and you should take your money elsewhere.

• A PADI centre is a service provider (that happens to have people working for it that are members of PADI)
• You pay for that service
• If you are not getting that service then they are in breach of contract
  

Forget all the nice things the PADI centres say about being "clubs" - they are not "clubs" in the same way that BSAC or SAA branches are - they are a business, and should be operated in a business-like manner. Once you get outside the training services, then they become a good way for like-minded and similarly-trained people to get together (almost like a real club), but all the time that you are signing their liability releases you are entering into contract with a business.

One of our local PADI centres pretends to be a club, and is a rubbish club. If on the other hand you look on it as a business, then is is just about acceptable (although extortionately expensive, with some dubious financial practices, and treats the instructors it uses like cr@p).

Just my two penn'orth

[bottlefish]

(30-11-2008 11:45 AM)furryman Wrote:  Forget all the nice things the PADI centres say about being "clubs" - they are not "clubs" in the same way that BSAC or SAA branches are - they are a business, and should be operated in a business-like manner. Once you get outside the training services, then they become a good way for like-minded and similarly-trained people to get together (almost like a real club), but all the time that you are signing their liability releases you are entering into contract with a business.

True enough, a club that is attached to a PADI Dive Centre will generally not be the same as a BSAC or SAA club. There'll most likely be no committe, no rules, no budget, no official set up. It'll just be a bunch of people with a common interest in diving, who meet up to talk about diving and arrange trips. All the ones I've been involved with have had a minimal (often zero) membership fee.... trips are arranged by anyone who feels like it, open to anyone who feels like it and are charged at cost.

For sure, the Dive Centre will have commercial reasons for setting it up, encouraging people to dive is better for their own business, getting them all under the same roof makes it easier for them to gain customer loyalty. They'd be foolish not to use it as a platform to promote trainng, sales, dive centre trips and holidays etc, but that's about as far as it goes.

I doubt trying to demand customer service at a club meet would make that person very popular, or get them invited on any of the trips!

[furryman]

(30-11-2008 03:37 PM)bottlefish Wrote:  I doubt trying to demand customer service at a club meet would make that person very popular, or get them invited on any of the trips!

Spot on - but who said anything about a "club meet"? ... the post that I was replying to spoke of PADI instructors not turning up to provide training. The owner of the dive centre in such a case is the one who should be pressed to provide the service that he or she has promised, (whether that Centre is called a "Club" or a "Dive Shop".)

Oh and by the way, the owner of the "Club" I had in mind makes a 50% margin on boat trips that he books and calls "Club dives"....

Chris

[bottlefish]

(30-11-2008 06:19 PM)furryman Wrote:  

(30-11-2008 03:37 PM)bottlefish Wrote:  I doubt trying to demand customer service at a club meet would make that person very popular, or get them invited on any of the trips!

Spot on - but who said anything about a "club meet"? ... the post that I was replying to spoke of PADI instructors not turning up to provide training. The owner of the dive centre in such a case is the one who should be pressed to provide the service that he or she has promised, (whether that Centre is called a "Club" or a "Dive Shop".)

Oh and by the way, the owner of the "Club" I had in mind makes a 50% margin on boat trips that he books and calls "Club dives"....

Chris

Sorry Chris, the way I read your post implied that clubs affiliated to PADI Dive Centres should also be expected to provide a service... agree with what you are saying entirely, a PADI Centre is asking for payment, and should therefore ensure that it's capable of providing thats service by using reliable instructors.

As for your own experience, that's a bit much eh?! Try heading over to Diving Leisure London in Battersea, or Dive Solutions in Fulham, I think Amphibian Sports in West Norwood also have a club running - don't think you'll find any of them are quite as cheeky